Altes Elliott-Wellen-Forum - Re: Klarstellung - Geld ist das Abgabengut und umgekehrt

Re: Klarstellung - Geld ist das Abgabengut und umgekehrt

verfasst von Popeye, 21.08.2005, 18:02

-->>>Tax Driven Money - Quotes
>>A prince, who should enact that a certain proportion of his taxes should be paid in a paper money of a certain kind, might thereby give a certain value to this paper money; even though the term of its final discharge and redemption should depend altogether on the will of the prince. (Smith, 1776, 312)
>>In the first place, a paper, wherewith debts can be legally, though fraudulently, discharged, derives a kind of value from that single circumstance. Moreover, the paper-money may be made efficient to discharge the perpetually recurring claims of public taxation. (Say, 1803, p. 280)
>>1. After experience had shown that pieces of paper, of no intrinsic value, by merely bearing upon them the written profession of being equivalent to a certain number of francs, dollars, or pounds, could be made to circulate as such, and to produce all the benefit to the issuers which could have been produced by the coins which they purported to represent; governments began to think that it would be a happy device if they could appropriate to themselves this benefit, free from the condition to which individuals issuing such paper substitutes for money were subject, of giving, when required, for the sign, the thing signified. They determined to try whether they could not emancipate themselves from this unpleasant obligation, and make a piece of paper issued by them pass for a pound, by merely calling it a pound, and consenting to receive it in payment of the taxes. And such is the influence of almost all established governments, that they have generally succeeded in attaining this object: I believe I might say they have always succeeded for a time, and the power has only been lost to them after they had compromised it by the most flagrant abuse.
>>In the case supposed, the functions of money are performed by a thing which derives its power for performing them solely from convention; but convention is quite sufficient to confer the power; since nothing more is needful to make a person accept anything as money, and even at any arbitrary value, than the persuasion that it will be taken from him on the same terms by others. The only question is, what determines the value of such a currency; since it cannot be, as in the case of gold and silver (or paper exchangeable for them at pleasure), the cost of production.
>>We have seen, however, that even in the case of a metallic currency, the immediate agency in determining its value is its quantity. If the quantity, instead of depending on the ordinary mercantile motives of profit and loss, could be arbitrarily fixed by authority, the value would depend on the fiat of that authority, not on cost of production. The quantity of a paper currency not convertible into the metals at the option of the holder, can be arbitrarily fixed; especially if the issuer is the sovereign power of the state. The value, therefore, of such a currency is entirely arbitrary. (Mill, 1848, pp. 542-543)
>>
>>"Prussia has paper money of forced currency. (A reflux is secured by the obligation to pay a portion of taxes in paper.)" (Marx, 1857, pp. 132).
>>The Government has, however, a further resource. It has the means of maintaining a perpetual recurrence of persons thus desiring money at its face value, for the Government itself has more or less defined powers of taking the possessions of its subjects for public purposes, that is to say, enforcing them to contribute thereto by paying taxes. Ultimately it requires food, clothing, shelter, and a certain amount of amusement and indulgence for its soldiers and all its officials; and it requires fire-arms, ammunition, and the like. And in proportion to its advance in civilization it may have other and humaner purposes to fulfil. Now, as long as gold has any application in the arts and sciences it exchanges at a certain rate with other commodities, just as oxen exchange at a certain rate against potatoes, pig-iron, or the privilege of listening, in a certain kind of seat, to a prima donna at a concert. The Government, then, levying taxes upon the community, may say:"I shall take from you, in proportion to your resources, as a tribute to public expenses, the value of so much gold. You may pay it to me in actual metallic gold or you may pay it to me in anything which I choose to accept in lieu of the gold. If you do not give it me I shall take it from you, in gold or any other such articles as I can find, and which would serve my purpose, to the value of the gold. But if you can give me a piece of paper, of my own issue, to the face value of the gold that I am entitled to claim of you, I will accept that in payment." Now, as these demands of the Government are recurrent, there will always be a set of persons to whom the Government paper stamped with a unit weight of gold is actually equivalent to that weight of gold itself, because it will secure immunity from requisitions to the exact extent to which the gold would secure it. This gives to the piece of paper an actual power of doing the work that gold to its face value could do, in the way of effecting exchanges; and therefore the Government will find that the persons of whom it has made purchases, or whom it has to pay for their services, will not only be obliged to accept the paper in lieu of payments already due, and which it chooses to say that these papers discharge, but will also be willing to enter into fresh bargains with it, to supply services or to surrender things for the paper, exactly as if it were gold; as long as it is easy to find persons who, being themselves under obligation to the Government, actually find the Government promise to relinquish their claim for gold as valuable as the gold itself. The persons who pay taxes constitute a very large portion of the community and the taxes they have to pay form a very appreciable fraction of their total expenditure, and consequently a very large number of easily accessible persons actually value the paper as much as the gold up to a certain determined point, the point, to wit, of their obligations to the Government. Thus it is that a limited demand for paper, at its face value in gold, constitutes a permanent market, and furnishes a basis on which a certain amount of other transactions will be entered into. The Government, in fact, is in a position very analogous to that of an issuing bank. An issuing bank promises to pay gold to any one who presents its notes, and to a certain extent that promise performs the functions of the gold itself, and a certain volume of notes can be floated as long as the credit of the bank is good. Because bank promises to pay are found to be convenient, as a means of conducting exchanges. After this number has been floated the notes begin to be presented at the bank, and presently it has to redeem its promises as quickly as it issues them. The limit then has been reached and the operation cannot be repeated. After this people will decline to accept the promises of the bank in lieu of the money, or, which is the same thing, they will instantly present the promise and require its fulfillment. The amount of notes in circulation may be maintained, but it cannot be increased. The issuing Government does not, without qualification, say that it will pay gold to any one who presents the note, but, in accepting its own notes instead of gold, it says, in effect, that it will give gold for its own notes to any of its own debtors; and as long as there is a sufficient body of these debtors to vivify the circulating fluid the Government can get its promises accepted at par. Any Government which, even for a short time, insists on paying in paper and receiving in gold, that is to say, any Government that does not honour its own issue when presented by its debtors, will find that its subjects decline to enter into voluntary contracts with it except on the gold basis; and if its paper still retains any value whatever, it will only be because of an expectation of a different state of things hereafter that gives a certain speculative value to the promise. In fact a Government which refuses to take its own money at par has no vivifying sources to rely on except the very disreputable and rapidly exhausted one of proclaiming to debtors, and persons under contract to pay periodic sums, that they need not do so if they hold a certificate of immunity from the Government. Such immunity will be purchased at a price determined, like all other market prices, by the stock available (qualified by the anticipations of the stock likely to be available presently) and the nature of the services it can render.
>>The power, then, of Governments to make their issues do exchange work depends on their power to make a note of a certain face value do a definite amount of exchange work; and this they can effect by giving it a definite primary value to certain persons, and then keeping the issue within the corresponding limits. It does not consist in an anomalous, and, in fact, inconceivable, power of enabling an indefinite issue to perform a definite work, and arriving at the value of each individual unit by a division sum. (Wicksteed, 1910, pp. 620-622)
>>Under modern conditions in most civilized countries the full and continuous circulation of any kind of money in any particular country commonly requires a measure of legal authorization from the government of that country. (Taylor, 1906, p. 86)
>>Under modern conditions representative money which is not redeemable, directly or indirectly, in either standard money or goods, seems generally to require, as a condition of currency, that it should be a valid tender in some important relation, e.g., payments to government. (Taylor, 1906, p. 89)
>>standard coins which fall much short of legal requirements in respect to weight will not commonly remain in circulation, unless, though short in weight, they continue to be a valid tender in some important relation, particularly in payments to government. (Taylor, 1906, p. 90)
>>Any particular seller will accept as money what he can use for buying things himself or for settling his own obligations. This seems to say that a means of payment will be generally acceptable if it is already generally acceptable, and it looks like a circular argument. But it only means that general acceptability is not easily established. General acceptability may come about gradually. If a growing number of people are willing to accept payment in a particular form, this makes others willing to accept that kind of payment. General acceptability may be established rapidly if very important sellers or creditors are willing to accept payment in a particular form of money. For example if the government announces its readiness to accept a certain means of payment in settlement of taxes, taxpayers will be willing to accept this means of payment because they can use it to pay taxes. Everyone else will then be willing to accept it because they can use it to buy things from the taxpayers, or to pay debts to them, or to make payments to others who have to make payments to the taxpayers, and so on. (Lerner, 1946, p. 693)
>>We are used to ranging cowrie with the other shells as a sample of primitive money in a supposed evolutionary perspective of the"origins and development of money." Historical research removes this evolutionary bias. Cowrie currencies emerged on the Middle and Upper reaches of the Niger at a time when metal currencies and, indeed, coined money were long established in the Mediterranean heartlands. This is the background against which the emergence of a new nonmetallic currency in Islamic West Africa should be viewed. It will then not be erroneously regarded as part of a general evolution of money, but rather as a feature in the spread both of centralized government and of food markets in the early [African] empires which left its imprint on the local history of money. (Polanyi, 1966, p. 178)
>>Dependencies of such emirates as Nupe paid their levies in cowries as well, so that the taxation system effectively assured that people participated in the market economy and used the currency, a policy remarkably similar to the one which the later colonial regimes pursued in their efforts to see their own currencies accepted. (Lovejoy, 1974, p. 581)
>>The apparent preference to the payment of taxes in money—cowries or gold—is especially interesting. It must be assumed that the spread of the use of cowry shells as money in West Africa depended upon state initiative—this was certainly the case with the introduction of the cowry currency in Bornu in the 1840s. (Law, 1978, p. 49)
>>I now undertake to affirm positively, and without the least fear that I can be answered, what heretofore I have but suggested-that a paper issued by the government, with the simple promise to receive it in all its dues..., would, to the extent that it would circulate, form a perfect paper-circulation. (John C.Calhoun 1981 [1838], p.220)
>Frage:
>Waren die Zigaretten zur Zeit der Zigarettenwaehrung Abgabengut?
>Gruss
>seegeist

Für Raucher oder Nichtraucher? [image]

Gegenfrage: War in diesem Umfeld ein abgabenfordernder Staat erkennbar?
Merke: All fiat money is tax-driven money!

Grüße aus dem Land der Zaren
<ul> ~ http://www.albany.edu/~mirer/eco110m/pow.html</ul>

Thread gesperrt

gesamter Thread:

Knotenschüre (= khipus) der Inkas dienten (auch) der Buchhaltung - Popeye, 16.08.2005, 15:33
- Re:... und erklären endlich auch den 33 %-Zinssatz - dottore, 17.08.2005, 18:05
  - Re: Der Chefbuchhalter - dottore, 17.08.2005, 18:27
  - Re:... und erklären endlich auch den 33 %-Zinssatz - Popeye, 17.08.2005, 20:11
    - Re: Wie blöd sind Harvardler wirklich? Die Beerdigung des"friedlichen" Caral - dottore, 18.08.2005, 14:01
      - Re: Wie blöd sind Harvardler wirklich? Die Beerdigung des"friedlichen" Caral - Popeye, 18.08.2005, 14:31
  - Re:... und erklären endlich auch den 33 %-Zinssatz - Popeye, 17.08.2005, 20:46
    - Re: Der silberne Jude"Silver"hat auch nichts geschnallt - dottore, 18.08.2005, 21:43
      - Re: Der silberne Jude"Silver" berücksichtigt die Saisonalität - Dimi, 19.08.2005, 08:39
  - Re:... und erklären endlich auch den 33 %-Zinssatz - seegeist, 17.08.2005, 23:02
    - Re: Der Zweitwohnungs-Zins - Die Mär vom"freien Eigentum" - dottore, 18.08.2005, 12:01
      - Re: Der Zweitwohnungs-Zins - Die Mär vom"freien Eigentum" - Holmes, 18.08.2005, 13:56
      - Amuesanter Verbalradikalismus - seegeist, 18.08.2005, 18:07
        Re: Amuesanter Verbalradikalismus - Holmes, 18.08.2005, 20:10
        Klarstellung - seegeist, 19.08.2005, 04:04
        Re: Klarstellung - aus einer etwas anderen Perspektive ergänzend - Uwe, 19.08.2005, 05:27
        Re: Klarstellung - aus einer etwas anderen Perspektive ergänzend - seegeist, 19.08.2005, 15:26
        Re: Klarstellung - aus einer etwas anderen Perspektive ergänzend - Uwe, 19.08.2005, 16:42
        Von wegen Quacksalberei - seegeist, 19.08.2005, 17:34
        Re: Hömma, seegeist - - Elli -, 19.08.2005, 17:59
        Re: Hömma, seegeist - seegeist, 19.08.2005, 18:24
        Re: Hömma, seegeist + Entschuldigung - - Elli -, 19.08.2005, 19:10
        Re: Hömma, seegeist + Entschuldigung - seegeist, 19.08.2005, 20:01
        Re: Hömma, seegeist + Entschuldigung - seegeist, 19.08.2005, 21:10
        Re: @seegeist wg. Prof. Läufer, dottore, Notar - - Elli -, 19.08.2005, 23:35
        Re: Debitismus und Wissenschaft - Holmes, 19.08.2005, 20:41
        Re: Debitismus und Wissenschaft - seegeist, 20.08.2005, 16:09
        Re: Debitismus und Wissenschaft - Holmes, 22.08.2005, 17:31
        Re: Debitismus und Wissenschaft - Holmes - - Elli -, 22.08.2005, 17:49
        Re: Angebot eines Schlußsatzes zum 'Gleichungsthema' - Uwe, 19.08.2005, 18:11
        Re: Angebot eines Schlußsatzes zum 'Gleichungsthema' - seegeist, 19.08.2005, 19:07
        Re: Klarstellung - Holmes, 19.08.2005, 15:39
        Re: Klarstellung - seegeist, 19.08.2005, 19:57
        Re: Klarstellung - Holmes, 19.08.2005, 21:40
        Re: Klarstellung - seegeist, 20.08.2005, 00:17
        Re: Klarstellung - Holmes, 20.08.2005, 00:40
        Re: Klarstellung - dottore, 20.08.2005, 16:53
        Re: Klarstellung - seegeist, 20.08.2005, 22:06
        Re: Klarstellung - Geld ist das Abgabengut und umgekehrt - Popeye, 21.08.2005, 06:35
        Re: Klarstellung - Geld ist das Abgabengut und umgekehrt - seegeist, 21.08.2005, 07:30
        Re: Klarstellung - Geld ist das Abgabengut und umgekehrt - Popeye, 21.08.2005, 18:02
        Re: Klarstellung - Geld ist das Abgabengut und umgekehrt - seegeist, 21.08.2005, 18:53
        Re: Klarstellung - Geld ist das Abgabengut und umgekehrt - Popeye, 21.08.2005, 21:12
        rote Karte - Elli (Boardmaster)--, 21.08.2005, 21:49
        Re: rote Karte - Euklid, 22.08.2005, 08:12
        Re: rote Karte / Für Dich noch mal den Kernsatz zum Mitschreiben: - Histrio, 22.08.2005, 09:27
        Re: rote Karte / jetzt reicht´s - Elli (Boardmaster)--, 22.08.2005, 11:51
        piano, piano: Re: rote Karte / jetzt reicht´s - weissgarnix, 22.08.2005, 13:08
        Re: Taste kaputt? - - Elli -, 22.08.2005, 13:24
        Popeye und mangelnde Geschichtskenntnis... *LOL* (o.Text) - LenzHannover, 22.08.2005, 17:20
        Re: Klarstellung - Argument liegt seit drei Jahren vor - Seegeist - Dimi, 21.08.2005, 11:07
        Re: Klarstellung - Argument liegt seit drei Jahren vor - Seegeist - Dimi - - Elli -, 21.08.2005, 11:27
        Re: Klarstellung - Argument liegt seit drei Jahren vor - Seegeist - Elli - Dimi, 21.08.2005, 12:06
        Re: Michigansee - Dimi - - Elli -, 21.08.2005, 12:18
        Re: Michigansee - Das dachte ich mir bereits ;-) (o.w.T.) - Dimi, 21.08.2005, 12:21
        Re: Michigansee - Das dachte ich mir bereits ;-) / Und? Antwort? (o.Text) - - Elli -, 21.08.2005, 12:29
        Re: Michigansee - Das dachte ich mir bereits ;-) / Und? Antwort? - Vermutl.(o.T) (o.Text) - Dimi, 21.08.2005, 12:34
        Re: Die ZB fordert keinen"Zins", sondern sie besteuert - dottore, 20.08.2005, 11:23
        Die berühmte Seignorage - sammelleidenschaft, 20.08.2005, 18:56
        Re: willst du noch ansatzweise ernst genommen werden? - JüKü, 20.08.2005, 19:29
        Re: Klarstellung - freeman, 19.08.2005, 21:13
        Re: Klarstellung - dottore, 20.08.2005, 10:47
        Re: Klarstellung - freeman, 20.08.2005, 22:54
        Vorfinanzierungsproblem - freeman, 24.08.2005, 14:24
        Interpretationen - Zandow, 20.08.2005, 00:53
        Nachtrag - Zandow, 20.08.2005, 01:30
        Re: Nachtrag - R.Deutsch, 20.08.2005, 09:17
        Der andere Grund - Zandow, 20.08.2005, 17:49
        Re: Der andere Grund - R.Deutsch, 20.08.2005, 19:45
        Bis alles alle ist - Zandow, 20.08.2005, 23:06
        Re: @Zandow - kleiner Irrtum - R.Deutsch, 21.08.2005, 10:32
        Re: Bis alles alle ist - Euklid, 21.08.2005, 10:54
        Gewachsen - Zandow, 21.08.2005, 16:36
        Re: Bis alles alle ist - Diogenes, 21.08.2005, 11:28
        Zukünftige Bedürfnisse - Zandow, 22.08.2005, 18:25
        Re: Zukünftige Bedürfnisse - Diogenes, 23.08.2005, 08:49
        Re: Zukünftige Bedürfnisse - Diogenes - nereus, 23.08.2005, 10:09
        @Diogenes: Verdrehungen - Zandow, 24.08.2005, 19:48
        Re: @Diogenes: Verdrehungen - Diogenes, 25.08.2005, 08:30
        Re: @Diogenes: Vorfinanzierung - Holmes, 25.08.2005, 11:50
        Das Vieh, das Salz, die Felle, die Stoffe, das Getreide, der Schmuck, die Waffen - Zandow, 25.08.2005, 20:55
        Re: Das Vieh, das Salz, die Felle, die Stoffe, das Getreide, der Schmuck, die Wa - Diogenes, 25.08.2005, 21:17
        Logische Schlußfolgerungen - Zandow, 27.08.2005, 01:08
        Re: Das Vieh, das Salz, die Felle, die Stoffe, das Getreide.. - Zandow - nereus, 26.08.2005, 10:15
        Waffe = Macht - Zandow, 27.08.2005, 01:18
        Re: Waffe = Macht - Zandow - nereus, 27.08.2005, 10:21
        "Die Sintfluthsagen", Usener, 1899 - Zandow, 27.08.2005, 12:24
        Re:"Die Sintfluthsagen", Usener, 1899 - Zandow - nereus, 28.08.2005, 10:22
        Re:"Die Sintfluthsagen", Usener, 1899 - Zandow - freeman, 28.08.2005, 21:37
        Re:"Die Sintfluthsagen", Usener, 1899 - Zandow - Popeye, 28.08.2005, 22:51
        Re:"Die Sintfluthsagen", Usener, 1899 - Zandow - freeman, 28.08.2005, 23:16
        Steinzeitliche Waffen (auch Frage @dottore) - Zandow, 29.08.2005, 19:29
        Re: Nachtrag - Diogenes, 20.08.2005, 11:50
        Zur Not gehts auch ohne Markt, an dem Steuerpflichtige Handel treiben: - FOX-NEWS, 20.08.2005, 14:11
        Re: Zur Not gehts auch ohne Markt / bequemer? - JüKü, 20.08.2005, 14:28
        Aber sicher! - FOX-NEWS, 20.08.2005, 17:02
        Re: Aber sicher! - JüKü, 20.08.2005, 18:44
        Re: Aber sicher!... so etwa... - FOX-NEWS, 20.08.2005, 20:21
        Re: Aber sicher! - Diogenes, 21.08.2005, 11:10
        Re: Zur Not gehts auch ohne Markt, an dem Steuerpflichtige Handel treiben: - Diogenes, 20.08.2005, 14:42
        Re: Zur Not gehts auch ohne Markt, an dem Steuerpflichtige Handel treiben: - dottore, 20.08.2005, 16:13
        "Der Staat zahlt an sich keine Steuern." - FOX-NEWS, 20.08.2005, 16:59
        Wirtschaft entsteht durch Macht? - Burning_Heart, 20.08.2005, 19:12
        Re: Zur Not gehts auch ohne Markt, an dem Steuerpflichtige Handel treiben: - Diogenes, 21.08.2005, 08:42
        Re: Was für ein Idiot ich war! - dottore, 23.08.2005, 16:22
        warum wollen die Söldner urplötzlich cash, warum gehen herrscher drauf ein? - weissgarnix, 22.08.2005, 11:18
        Re: Zur Leistungsbilanz der antiken Mächte - dottore, 23.08.2005, 14:28
        Re: Zur Leistungsbilanz der antiken Mächte / --Sammlung (o.Text) - Elli (Boardmaster)--, 23.08.2005, 14:50
        Re: Zur Leistungsbilanz der antiken Mächte - weissgarnix, 23.08.2005, 15:38
        Re: Zur Leistungsbilanz der antiken Mächte - freeman, 25.08.2005, 23:23
        Re: @seegeist - Elli (Boardmaster)--, 20.08.2005, 13:17
        seegeist antwortet Zuericher Seegespenst - seegeist, 20.08.2005, 22:29
        Re: seegeist antwortet Zuericher Seegespenst/falls es nicht deutlich genug war - Elli (Boardmaster)--, 21.08.2005, 00:23
        Re: seegeist antwortet Zuericher Seegespenst/falls es nicht deutlich genug war - seegeist, 21.08.2005, 00:31
        Deutliche Antwort... @seegeist - bernor, 21.08.2005, 01:55
        @bernor - Euklid, 21.08.2005, 09:44
        Re: @bernor / Stil & Sachlichkeit - bernor, 21.08.2005, 14:34
        Re: @seegeist / Punkt 2 oder 3? - Elli (Boardmaster)--, 21.08.2005, 11:14
        Re: seegeist antwortet Zuericher Seegespenst/falls es nicht deutlich genug war - apoll, 21.08.2005, 21:23
        seegeist antwortet Zuericher Seegespenst (link funktioniert jetzt) - seegeist, 21.08.2005, 05:19
        Re: Amuesanter Verbalradikalismus - Mitnichten seegeist - AndrÃ©, 18.08.2005, 20:44
      - Re: Der Zweitwohnungs-Zins - Die Mär vom"freien Eigentum" - Dimi, 18.08.2005, 21:53
        Re: Warum BIN plötzlich SCHULDNER geworden? Ich hatte Nullkommanull"geliehen"! - dottore, 18.08.2005, 22:13
        Re: Warum bin ICH plötzlich SCHULDNER geworden?"Ich" bescheiden unterschlagen.. (o.Text) - dottore, 18.08.2005, 22:17
        Re: Du schuldest Abgaben, aber wieso deshalb Zins bei Privatdarlehen? - Dimi, 18.08.2005, 22:43
        Gibt's was umsonst? - bernor, 19.08.2005, 00:41
        Re: Gibt's was umsonst? - Uwe, 19.08.2005, 01:38
        Re: Korrektur zum Gesetz der Strafe für das Nase abbeißen... - Uwe, 19.08.2005, 01:58
        Re: Gibt's was umsonst? / Produktionskredit? - bernor, 20.08.2005, 02:00
        @dottore - Euklid, 19.08.2005, 09:22
        Re: @dottore - dottore, 19.08.2005, 12:22
        "beim Wucherer (heute Bank)" - grossartig! (o.Text) - BillyGoatGruff, 19.08.2005, 14:02
        Re: @dottore / Euklid - - Elli -, 19.08.2005, 14:08
        Re: nur, dem Schuldner passiert nichts......... - ottoasta, 19.08.2005, 14:38
        Re: nur, dem Schuldner passiert nichts......... - Holmes, 19.08.2005, 15:12
        Re: nur, dem Schuldner passiert nichts......... - bernor, 19.08.2005, 17:53
        Re: nix da! - ottoasta, 19.08.2005, 20:47
        Re: nix da! - Holmes, 19.08.2005, 21:52
        Re: nix da! - Euklid, 19.08.2005, 22:12
        Heute arbeitet der Staat für die Schuldner *kotz* (o.Text) - LenzHannover, 22.08.2005, 01:15
        Was wohl passiert, wenn er von seiner Strohfrau vor die Tür gesetzt wird? - FOX-NEWS, 19.08.2005, 18:27
        Re: @dottore-euklid: Riesenspielgelfechtereiboheih - arvito, 19.08.2005, 15:17
        Re: @dottore-euklid: Riesenspielgelfechtereiboheih - eroland, 19.08.2005, 15:42
        Re: @dottore-euklid: Riesenspielgelfechtereiboheih / soso.. - - Elli -, 19.08.2005, 16:33
        Ähm... Elli, wenn ich Euklid richtig verstanden habe, - FOX-NEWS, 19.08.2005, 18:36
        Spiegel vorhalten ja, Spiegelfechterei nein - BillyGoatGruff, 19.08.2005, 18:07
        Re: @dottore - Euklid, 19.08.2005, 21:41
  - Re:... und erklären endlich auch den 33 %-Zinssatz/ drin in der Sammlung (o.Text) - Elli (Boardmaster)--, 18.08.2005, 14:24
  - Re:... und erklären endlich auch den 33 %-Zinssatz - bernor, 19.08.2005, 01:43